This is a Guest Post by Kyle Reed.
That took no guts, you might have thought it was ballsy, but you are doing what all liberals do these days, take shots at America and Christianity.
You can imagine my surprise when the president of the school board finished off his verbal beat down with that statement. You would figure that I did something wrong, maybe stole some money, shook a baby, or called him a name.
But it was my blog that got his temperature boiling.
Not only was I shocked at what he was saying, I was a little caught off guard.
I was in the middle of my afternoon workout at the gym when he walked through the front door with my most recent blog post printed out in one hand and the school handbook in the other. I could tell he wasn’t there to work out; he was there to work me out. I knew that my most recent blog post was going to get some response, I just didn’t know it would get me fired.
The post I am referencing is found here, it is called “Chapel, actually it was an assembly.”
At the time I was a Jr High Guys Bible teacher and also helped with the chapel service that we had each Thursday. The post centered around the chapel service that took place at school that day. I won’t overwhelm you with all the details, but needless to say I was frustrated and I needed to share it with someone. I thought what better way to get it off of my chest than to share it with my blog readers.
Man was that a mistake.
I was accused of a lot of things that day in the gym; I was accussed of being very “liberal,” not teaching biblical truths, and even to the point of not being a Christian. You get the idea.
After I agreed to make some changes to the post (taking out the schools name, and putting up a disclaimer) we went about our way like nothing ever happened. Not until 2 months later, in a meeting with the administrator, did I find out the ramifications of my blog and the post that brought about so much “controversy.”
He (the administrator) gave me a line along these lines, “you are great relationally with the students, but you are not a good fit here at the school.” Being rather confused, I asked the administrator how so? He went on to explain that my ideology and beliefs about America and Christianity were very false and they could not have that in this school around their children. Needless to say I was more then stunned to be finding out that I was being fired because of one post.
It might seem like this situation was blown out of proportion, like both sides could have done something differently. I don’t disagree with you, I could have handled the situation a little better. But I was going to stand behind my post. Not because I wanted to be a major disruption to the school, or because I wanted to be a rebel (well maybe a little), but because of the conversation that was happening through this post. Not only was there several people weighing in to the conversation on the blog, but friends were asking me about it as well. I was able to have conversations about handling strife, disagreement, frustration, and what is appropriate to post and what needs to be left in your head.
I would like to encourage you to go over to the post about blogging and controversy that John has learned over time. I wish I would have read his post about 6 months ago. Also check out Mark Batterson great post on this idea of offending the right people. Check it out here.
So what are your thoughts? Where would you stand?
[Image from Denmar]
Shannon Lewis says
Hmm… interesting that you should lose your job over it. I mean, I used to be in your shoes – I went through the non-violent, democratic-socialist phase as a early-through-mid-20's believer, and though I now see it's holes – both Biblically and practically – I can't imagine letting someone go because of those views. I'd be far less surprised to find out that the place is theologically reformed, and that the issue was with your endorsement of Greg Boyd. 😉
Jay says
Well, it appears that you were terminated largely because of something political which is something I do not support, regardless of your views. It was wrong, and it was made worse by him attempting to hide behind a theological excuse when it appears his entire reasoning was nothing but political.
To be honest, I take issue with your views as well and to be perfectly blunt, your contention that you were supporting an "act of war" by having this soldier speak was completely absurd.
From a biblical perspective, you need to lay out a better case when making such arguments. For instance, you wrote, "To me this is counter to the Bible and to Jesus. " How? If you're going to make that kind of grand statement, you need to support it with biblical references, and not use the fallacy of appealing to authority by quoting Dr. Boyd's book.
Quite frankly, there are times when it is necessary to fight. It is the lesser of two evils and the bible is clear on that. Ecclesiastes 3:8 says "There is a time for war and a time for peace." Did Jesus ever tell the Roman soldiers to leave the army? No. He would have said to them, "Follow me." Jesus himself twice in the New Testament cleansed the temple with acts of brute force.
We just completed a study on Numbers and attitudes. We specifically learned of God's anger at the rebellion by the tribes of Israel for not going to war when even though God promised them victory. War is sometimes the price to be paid to bring about justice for some. The Bible is filled with references to God being pleased with acts of justice.
klreed189 says
I can understand your disagreement with me. I probably went a little far with my frustration and my views. I now this is going to sound like a typical response, but you had to be there to better understand the situation. Looking back on it now, I don't feel like I was supporting an act of war. I said that out of frustration with the situation. There is a lot of back story that went into this very frustrating day and this was one of my ways of venting that frustration.
I still stand by my views of war and peace. I do not think it is counter to Jesus in any way. Jesus directed his violence towards people that professed his name and were using his name and His Fathers house as a place of business. His harshest words were for people who said they were following God but did not show it (Pharisees).
The part that I struggle with mos here is using war to bring about Justice. I understand looking at the Old Testament as a way of defending war and using it for justice, but the New Testament has completely shattered that mindset, specifically with the death on the cross of Jesus. There was no war, actually he was suppose to start a war and did not give into what everyone thought he was going to do. He told one of his best friends to put his sword away. Instead, he brought justice through death. Not the death of anyone else, but the death of himself. That is pretty counter-culture to today and to the times of Jesus. If you are trying to bring change by using violence it only brings about more violence. Redemptive violence does nothing to redeem anyone.
I am going to leave it there, and I really do not want to get into an argument on churchcrunch because I see it as being a very peaceful and sharing place. I do appreciate your comment and questioning though.
Jay says
Kyle, don't get me wrong. I'm not looking for a debate and all I see is us having a disagreement. My point of replying to you is that if you're going to make these arguments, you need to support with scripture and the context that goes along with it. That's all. We might still disagree but there are many levels of disagreement between fellow Christ followers as to various things in the bible (on a smaller scale, tattoos and consuming alcohol for example) that aren't black and white like other areas.
My advice is that in order to get people to think more about what you're saying, show them. Say, "Read such and such" a passage.
klreed189 says
That makes sense, I understand what you are saying and totally agree that it is not a black and white issue.
I do understand the scripture thing. I didn't list any scripture references in the post because it was more of a post of annoyance than trying to prove my point if that makes sense.
There are several scriptures that makes reference to these issues, specifically in Matthew with the sermon on the mount it talks about love your enemies, but then later in chapter 10 it talks about how the Son of Man has not come to bring peace but to bring the sword. So I understand what you are saying and we both have our opinions and we both can stand next to each other and worship the same God.
Thanks for the conversation though
Mike says
It was interesting reading through this post and the one that got you fired. Did the school have any type of policy about what was posted on social media sites? If not, then it makes everything much more difficult. We do have to remember the influence we have over students, and our words must be chosen carefully. After reading this, I don't think the school was out of line. You have a right to voice your opinion, and they have a right to terminate your employment. I admire you for standing by your post, but it was controversial and even offensive to many. I do think you were right on in talking about the purpose of chapel, but the post probably went a little too far.
klreed189 says
The school had no policy that I knew of regarding blogging. Actually I thin I was the only teacher there at the school that had a blog.
I did want to keep it away from my students. And I made a lot of efforts to keep it private. I never made any comment to them about it and did not tell them to go and read it. But there is this thing called google.
The guy that got upset about all of this had a son that was in my class. He said he was most afraid of what I was talking about because he didn't want his son brain washed with all this stuff. He wanted his son to not question anything until he gets out of high school.
My intentions were never to go after the school or really to cause such a problem.
It all worked out in the end though.
Eric Jones says
Back in the day i had a blog. I was blogging before it was cool. I was not a happy guy and i had a lot of misguided frustrations etc. So i blogged about everything. I made Carlos (Loswhit) look like he was hiding something. It got me into some heat with friends and ex gf's but it wasn't till the day i almost lost my job that i really saw how damaging words on a screen can be. lucky for me i didn't get fired, just transferred to another state to be some other managers problem…
i didn't blog again for almost 7 years.
now i'm smarting about it. still not perfect but i only blog when i know i can defend it and am willing to lose it all for what i have to say. i keep emotions low and try to use more wisdom then anything else…
great post today and i hope it saves someone else's job.
klreed189 says
Ya, I have become a lot smarter about it as well. I hope it saves someone else's job too
Brandon Cox says
I would have terminated you too. Doesn't mean I don't think you're worthy of being hired somewhere – I'm sure you're deeply spiritual and talented. Nonetheless, what I do in my personal time still falls under the authority of the church that gives me a paycheck each week. Therefore, even when I am unhappy about something within my organization, I'm careful to be respectful of the God-given position of authority my employer has.
I struggle sometimes with having a good filter, and while I agree with John's beliefs about tackling tough subjects, I still think this principle of authority is huge. You represent your employer. If you can't in good conscience do so, talk to your boss, not the public. If it can't be worked out, quit. Then blog.
To me, there's a balance to be learned by bloggers everywhere – don't avoid subjects, but have a filter. The obligation to respect an employer outweighs my right to "speak my mind."
klreed189 says
Thats good advice. I appreciate that
Nate says
Your opinion is your opinion. However, if it weren't for the military- your opinion wouldn't exist. "Peace Through Strength" is how we've maintained our freedom in a world of civilizations that can not maintain freedom. We have the greatest military in the world- and it's 100% volunteer. America is great… the greatest, and it's that way because of God- you can not separate those two things.
klreed189 says
I am going to have to definitely disagree with you on your last statement there. "America is great…the greatest, and its that way because of God." Be careful in what you are saying there. It sounds like you are saying that God has chosen America to be His people and He is going to only bless them.
I don't know about that
Nate says
Americas prosperity is due to our founding father's trust in God, Trusting Him with this new land. We used to hold a strong belief that God should be at the center of things. Obviously, Israel is the God's Chosen people, and we are brought into that family by accepting Jesus as our LORD.
hsojeel says
Hey Nate,
the theology of your statement is concerning. "Americas prosperity is due to our founding father's trust in God"
is a faulty/consumerist way of addressing the blessing that America has. The system of this world is not the "Kingdom" Christ came to establish. Nor is the prosperity of America any more important to God than a child suffering in the poorest parts of Africa.
Daniel says
The founding fathers of this country were mostly Deists (basically atheists, before atheism was an allowed concept) but even if they were Christians, their personal religious beliefs do not mean that we should base our government's foreign or domestic policies on a modern interpretation of a 2,000 year old religion. IN FACT they specifically said NOT to do that in the constitution.
In fact, have a read: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripol… That is a treaty that was created in 1796 and signed by many of the founding fathers of this country. See Article 11?
"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Interesting.
TK says
I stumbled across your blog and this post, so please excuse the intrusion. I’m struck by the events you describe and the justifications being given by the people involved and the commenters here.
I am not a Christian and I can tell you flat out that the behavior, opinions and attitudes expressed here on this post exemplify why I am so proud *not* to be one.
Sometimes I think all people with such fervent conviction in the rectitude of their religious belief should all live together. In fact, there was a convention in Egypt to just that effect – Muslim, fundamentalist Christian and Haredi Jewish, believe it or not. They got along well and agreed they shared more commonalities with each other than with the more mainstream branches of their respective religions.
That said, there is something known as smart and responsible blogging.
1. You can say whatever you want – if you work for a sensitive employer or have a sensitive position, use a pseudonym.
2. Don’t name names or places.
3. Not everything has to be blogged in the same place. Have multiple blogs for different purposes.
In the halcyon days of letters (like the 1700s) they knew this. People referred to others by initials or code, because ones letters could always be intercepted by those whose knowledge of the contents could be disastrous for the parties mentioned.
But you weren’t fired for your blogging. You were fired for having a different opinion, and, I daresay, and a different religious interpretation.
Wow – one stroke and your employer snatched away your right to publish and your right to your religion. How similar to Iran. How similar to Saudi Arabia. Don’t let them fool you into thinking that they’re defenders of American values, because they are not.
I’m not Christian. I am an American. I will defend your right to believe in Jesus or whomever or whatever you like. Not because I have any respect for religion or its contributions, but because respecting other people is part of my values.
But sheesh – like, practice safe blogging, ‘kay dude? Yo.
Jim says
dude…good advice on smart/responsible blogging.
human3rror says
Thanks for commenting here! Christians, just like everyone else, have a lot of issues and don't always agree. thanks for your input and perspective!
Daniel says
Welcome to American Christianity my friend. Now you understand why it is so important to try and keep this country's government separate from religion.
People in America like to pretend that we maintain a ridiculously big military that we do because we are "sensible" about it and "if we weren't the world police someone worse would be" or that it is to "protect our freedom" when in reality, events have shown that our military is used to protect corporate interests around the world. Invading a sovereign country (and spending billions upon billions of dollars to do so) without a justification (they were not at war with us and had not been since the 90s) does not protect anybody's freedom. To believe otherwise is foolish.
Saying that you "cannot seperate god and america" goes against everything that America actually stands for (freedom from State instituted religion, and persecution.) Just because Christians are a majority in this country doesn't mean they should try to abuse that by getting prayer and the bible put into government schools etc… I know it may be hard to understand but not everybody believes the way you do and you have no right to force your religious views on anybody else or anybody else's children. If the roles were reversed and America was dominated by Islam or atheists you would be "on fire for god" and itching to be a "martyr" for Jesus.
Don't call me a democrat or a "liberal". I'm not. I'm someone who believes in the principals that this country was founded upon (that have now been bastardized by both parties) If that was the first thing you thought then you really are a sheep taught to bahhh whenever someone disagrees with you. I'm the voice of common sense in the situation. This is why the world hates America.
I suggest you read The Handmaid's Tale. It's a good book. It has wonderful insight into what the U.S. could become if these people are not stopped.
Josh Wagner says
Wow. Some nice discussion on this one.
I read the original post and from an employers perspective, yeah, that was harsh. BUT, as an employer, if you can't handle someone who disagrees with you (or even takes a different interpretation) then you picked the wrong line of work. Iron sharpens iron, they say…
It is interesting how personal a blog feels, yet it's completely public. Anyone can read it, including your superiors. Don't put anything up you wouldn't want in the paper. If you truly believe it and you're willing to pay the price, then go ahead. But don't say we didn't warn you. 😉
Thanks for sharing, hopefully we can learn from your experience.
Jim says
Kyle, Thanks for sharing your story…stay out of trouble.
klreed189 says
you sound like my dad
Jim says
Dude…I am a dad…Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: IntenseDebate Notifications
Mark says
You know, I saw this post the other day and read part of your blog, but stopped and had to walk away from it.
In relation the specific post you blogged on here, unless I read wrong you were a teacher at some sort of christian school. I think a large part of why I probably would have fired you or given you just one reprive was the fact that your life, both in and outside of the school, is a leadership role for any of the kids you interacted with. Anything that could taint or bias their learning by your hand and make the nature of teaching less objective and more subjective by your personal persuasions would be deemed unacceptable for your line of work. Do you want the students to be able to think critically, yes but in a way that is objective.
You have very strong opinions on what you feel is the correct response to certain issues regarding teaching, chapel, and war. We get that and to a point with permission you can engage those ideas objectively to the class. But much like any associate pastor or church staff who writes a public blog ranting against the senior pastor, I would call them into question and their need to continue on in that role in that organization. This wasn't a case of moral failure or illegal actions, but an infringement on what you feel is the proper response to your interpretation.
If you had a problem, the correct course of action in my opinion would be to engage with the school leadership and make your reservations known. And if you couldn't submit, then resign and carry on elsewhere.
klreed189 says
Good advice there Mark. I actually had already gone threw this with other issues that i was put in the middle of, not by choice. The school preached Matt 18 way of confronting people. The key word is they preached it, but never followed it. I guess it would be very hard for you to know the back story of the entire year.
But I do agree with you that I should have dealt with the situation in a better manner.
friar_don says
So, let me get this strait;
You were fired because you exercised a freedom granted to you by this "great Christian country" by some great American people who believe America (that gave you the freedom of speech) is the greatest country ever because it is blessed by God?
Right?
Mark says
Well, that right is granted by the U.S. gov't. Kyle had every right to say what he did, but he must reap any benefits or repercussions by his using that right. For instance, if you are under a NDA with a company, you have every right to say what you will, but they have every right to sue you for breach of contract. Now that's a straight story.
klreed189 says
Both are right in this situation.
But, I would say that under a company they would have some rules in the contract communicating this.
Where I worked, there was nothing mentioned about this.
What gets me the most is the fact that people can say whatever they want about others at the school (there was a lot of backstabbing and gossiping) and not put it in written form, but when I just question something for discussion I get fired. You should have seen their reaction when I said that I was "debating" voting for Obama. I got a lot of good emails about that one.
Mark | hereiblog says
Very interesting story. Though I don't agree with your position across the board, I do believe we cross way too many lines with American patriotism inside the church. It seems it would have been better to create an open forum to truly encourage free thinking of the students.
IOW, a forum where ideas are exchanged where you could present your position and someone else from the school could present theirs. Keeping the debate as biblically grounded as possible. Rather than fire you this seems a better approach.
I wrote a post this past Memorial Day against the form of patriotism we see in many Sunday worship services. Two pastors commented that their thinking and approach were changed by it. Far too often it seems the Country is put on the level with Jesus Kingdom.