This week our conversation is started-up by John Wilkerson.
John submitted his comment and question via an audio email – how cool is that!?!
We talk about the difference struggles small and large churches face.
Enjoy this week’s podcast and you can find out how to send your own audio question, too.
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This episode is sponsored by By the Book
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LV says
Thank you so much for releasing this podcast. I am a one man team at my small church with so many tasks. I burned out on doing social media, sound, and web. You guys put things in proper perspective. I have a new perspective on how to tackle things at our ministry. Thanks again.
Jeremy Smith says
Glad it was helpful! Let us know if you have any questions.
Eric Dye says
Thank you for listening and keep being awesome. 😉
James Wasem says
Great episode guys! It’s a healthy reminder that we don’t need to have the biggest and best wiz-bang widgets to be a true “good steward” of our communities. This isn’t a competition, it’s a ministry.
Jeremy Smith says
So true!
Eric Dye says
True story! Thank you James. 🙂
Mike Morris says
Just listened to this. My biggest takeaway is that you guys are a cynical bunch when it comes to the smaller church. There was some good ideas here, but not all smaller churches are jealous of the bigger church, or have a lack of vision, or a lack of resources. But what many smaller churches do want is help on how to use existing technology to reach more people. Many small churches are healthy, but located in smaller areas with lower population densities. Since I pastor a church like this, and often consult with other smaller churches, what I hear time and time again is that they need good advice on what they can do and how to do it. What they often lack is a good resource that helps guide them. So many articles in church tech magazines and blogs are based not on a principle, but on equipment that is way beyond the budget of a smaller church. What I would like to see is how to do things well, but using equipment that is more affordable.
Phil Schneider says
MIke, I largely agree with you, and we did say as much in this episode, but as someone who went to a smaller church until that church became a medium-sized church, I have to say that what I also saw was a lot of directionless “Let’s try this!” sort of thinking.
That’s not to say that larger churches don’t do that, but they’re generally large enough and do enough otherwise that it’s not as noticeable. And I certainly agree about most magazines focusing more on big equipment as the solution to most post problems.
If you have some specific areas of tech you’d like us to talk about specifically, with smaller churches in mind, please let us know.
Chris Wilson says
Hey Mike, Full disclouser I’m a staff writer here but I didn’t appear in the Podcast. I didn’t read it as “small churches suck” or “small churches shouldn’t do this or that” in fact I remember several parts where they were pointing out how small churches can be a lot better off than bigger churches.
I’d also add that in the back channel we spend a lot of our time talking about small churches rather than big churches and we have a lot of champions of small churches and church plants. We want to see the church (both organisations and individual members) equipped and know how to use technology in great ways.
I think we often do cover affordable tools to help churches out and we often mention price considerations when a tool may be cost prohibitive (for large and small churches).
I don’t feel your accusation is fair on these guys being cynical about small churches and I know that we want to help them further.
Mike Morris says
Chris, thanks for replying. I’m not trying to be critical, but I do think that this podcast made too many assumptions about smaller churches. I do think that overall it was cynical against smaller churches. I also know that many people will find help and encouragement from it. I’m okay with that tension.
We have to be careful to take our own personal experiences and make them normative for the church at large. This is an area I’m passionate about (and have been blogging about for a long time). Just because a church is large doesn’t mean that it does a better job with volunteers, or that it has a stronger vision. I don’t believe stereotypes are helpful in that regard. And this podcast had many stereotypes and assumptions.
I’ve personally been involved with and have seen many smaller churches who are awesome at using technology, at mobilizing volunteers, and doing it all on a budget. I don’t view a lack of budget and resources as a problem, because it always forces us to be more creative and come up with unique solutions.
As a whole, ChurchMag has been awesome. I’ve been a reader from day one, so I’ve learned a lot from you guys. I know you guys value discussion, so I hope that you don’t take offense at this. I’m just pointing out some of my thoughts after listening. Keep up the good work.
Jeremy Smith says
Can you clarify this statement so we can better address the issue: “this podcast had many stereotypes and assumptions”
Mike Morris says
Good discussion. I think this is helpful for smaller churches, so I’ll share some of the quotes from the podcast. Again, this is from my perspective as a pastor of a church of 300-400 in a small town with a population of 6000 people. I’m the only full-time staff person at our church, so our ministry is based completely around volunteers.
I know these quotes are without context, but reading them as so helps to see how they could be perceived.
“churches that are more than 200 people rely on volunteers more than churches that are smaller than 200 … larger churches do volunteer management really well” – Connotation is that big churches do a better job mobilizing volunteers. That is not always true. Maybe in some cases, but it has to do more with the health and leadership of a church.
– “smaller churches feel this pressure – comparison to larger churches – small churches have pressure to do everything that megachurches are doing. they are trying to do more than what a church of that size should be doing”
Again, maybe some do, but I’m more concerned with how to reach our community and use the tools that are available to us. I don’t really feel the need to compare our church to a megachurch. It’s not realistic
– ” the quality of person will be better from a larger population” What?? I just talked to a pastor last week in a small church (less than 200 people). His volunteer tech director is an IT manager for a huge multi-national company.
– “small churches look at big churches and want to do all of that”
– “smaller churches have ‘pew envy’ and want to do what the larger churches are doing”
– “smaller church trying to behave like a megachurch and doesn’t have the bandwidth to pull it off”
All generalizations about the vision of small churches.
– “smaller churches – you have a pastor, and an associate pastor, and you have ministries that serve as little fiefdoms – all independent – all competitive, all just about getting what they need to complete their vision. That’s where little churches go wrong”
Another pretty big generalization
-“megachurches are better at planning for expenses than smaller churches” – How so? We have a very detailed budget and multi-year plan for technology
– “Smaller church, the language revolves around get a good deal or waste money.
Megachurch is more likely to spend what it takes to get quality” This is probably true most of the time, but I would add that smaller churches are more creative. They don’t focus on cutting edge technology, but they focus on how they can use what they already have and integrate with affordable new technology.
-“No vision or no understanding what it means to execute a vision with excellence in a lot of these smaller churches” – this is one that was more than little offensive to those serving in smaller churches.
-“The leadership is formed, the strategy is laid out and the vision is established, and with smaller churches, that may not be true.” Feels like you are saying churches are smaller because of a lack of vision and a lack of leadership.
-“Smaller churches are more Sunday to Sunday – live offering to offering. They don’t budget, they don’t prepare” – Again, maybe it’s true for some, but it doesn’t describe any of the small churches I work with.
Again, I hope this can help expand the discussion. Smaller churches do face a lot of hurdles and challenges, but please don’t generalize them and blame them on a lack of leadership and vision.
Jeremy Smith says
I stick by my comments on the podcast. We do generalize, but we have thousands listening to this podcast and we can only report from our own experiences within churches and what we have learned.
That being said, there are several churches out there doing amazing work. I have no doubt you are part of several of them. My guess is this episode was less intended for you.
Phil Schneider says
It’s not cynical to simply talk about what you’ve observed, and I’ve been in and around small churches my entire life. Certainly, we never intended nor do we believe that all small churches are like this. Sorry this has upset you so much…
And that’s makes me wonder…
Me thinks you doth protest too much.
Mike Morris says
Sorry if anything I said was taken as a personal attack. I have a huge heart for the local church and I know you guys do as well.
One more thing: A resource that is helpful about small churches is the book Grasshopper Myth by Karl Vater. I think it adds a lot to this conversation.
Phil Schneider says
I understand, Mike. I do. I’ll check that book out. Thanks!
Jared M says
You know I love you guys, but I do have to agree with Mike on this one a little bit. I know you guys well enough to know the hearts of what you were saying, but it definitely felt as though you were saying that smaller churches lack vision and that’s why they struggle. Or they just try to do too much. Or they don’t plan ahead. These completely ignore the real struggles churches face.
Might I suggest revisiting this down the road with a guest that is currently serving in a small church setting. I think you’ll find that a church’s size sometimes has more to do with their location than it has anything to do with anything else and that is not something they will ever escape. Or it could do with leadership, but someone serving on a church tech team can’t really control that element, so how can we equip that person to serve well despite a lack of vision from above. I’d love to dialogue more about this as this is a huge passion of mine.
Jeremy Smith says
To be clear, Eric serves in a church of 70, Phil in a church of 500. I’m the only one not in a small church, they both are. That being said, we are being harsh to small churches, though we did not clarify all small churches are like this. Some, not all.
Phil Schneider says
Woah. Phil in a church of 350 that used to be a church of 100.
Jeremy Smith says
Sorry… those numbers.
Curtis says
That knowing the vision of the small church podcast mentinoed for a future topic sounds good. Don’t forget to do that one you guys.
Jeremy Smith says
Glad it was helpful!